|
Post by ralfy on Aug 29, 2023 10:24:05 GMT
Young people? I hope they aren't the manosphere guys who want to pickup "trad wives". I've never heard of a wife-seeking man, with no other attachment to traditional Catholicism, seeking out the TLM solely for this purpose, but on the flip side, a woman who seeks to have a large family and to be a stay-at-home wife could have an analogous goal. FWIW, poor Catholic countries have high birth rates not because they promote the EF but because they're poor.
|
|
|
Post by ralfy on Aug 29, 2023 10:31:07 GMT
My understanding is that Latin was used as a base which all could communicate through. Think of a wagon wheel, with Latin as the hub of the wheel and all other languages being at the end of the spokes of the wheel. If someone within the Church needed to communicate to each of the spokes it started in Latin. If one of the spokes needed to communicate with another spoke (different language which they didn't speak), they would go to the hub (Latin) and thereby the other spoke would be able to understand the communication from the original spoke (language). In the very early Church, there were very few spokes, but as the Church grew, it started looking like those fancy wheels on the classic cars. That is kind of like English is today in Europe. If, say, a Frenchman who doesn't speak German, but does speak at least some English, wants to speak to a German who doesn't speak French but does speak at least some English, he will use... English. And as to Scandinavians who speak similar languages, but different enough to preclude easy communication, they likewise resort to English. They start learning English in elementary school. Many universities in Europe use English at least in graduate classes, regardless of the native language of the institution. Maastricht University in the Netherlands has English as its primary language of instruction. IOW, English is the "Latin" of 21st-century Europe.
Exactly!
The catch is globalization, which gained prominence after WW2. That's why in terms of L1 and L2 (first and second languages), English is top but Mandarin is a close second. For L1, Mandarin is top but for L2, it's English.
No. 2 for L1 is Spanish and for L2 Arabic.
|
|
|
Post by tisbearself on Aug 29, 2023 13:49:13 GMT
Young people? I hope they aren't the manosphere guys who want to pickup "trad wives". Dude, what country are you from? In the USA most people, including the young, do not attend Mass to look for a wife. (Or a husband.) Unless maybe they just moved here from someplace else with a different culture. In addition to that, the vast majority of people attending TLM here are living normal lives apart from wishing to attend TLM sometimes or all the time. It's not a bunch of manosphere weirdoes and subservient women. There are some SAHMs and aspiring SAHMs and also plenty of women with college degrees, professional careers, and two-earner households who would laugh in Tim Gordon's face if they even knew who he was. These threads always tend to show who actually goes to TLM and who just reads a lot of strange stuff on the Internet.
|
|
|
Post by tth1 on Aug 29, 2023 13:50:27 GMT
It isn't saying what you said. It says that a Latin Bible was commissioned because Latin was becoming the pre-dominant language in the Western Empire. Greek still prevailed in the East. I don't think people we no longer speaking the languages spoken by Jesus and the Apostles. Those languages, e.g. Aramaic, Hebrew, are still spoken.
|
|
bluekumul
Full Member
Christian humanist, democratic socialist, world citizen
Posts: 199
|
Post by bluekumul on Aug 29, 2023 16:28:47 GMT
These threads always tend to show who actually goes to TLM and who just reads a lot of strange stuff on the Internet. I admit I don't go to TLM. Thanks for explaining.
|
|
|
Post by homeschooldad on Aug 29, 2023 17:09:38 GMT
Quite right. Whom does the Bible say the "prince of this world" is? Hint: it's not Jesus. I don't normally think of a desire for the vernacular as a "value", I had in mind more things such as acceptance of abortion, divorce (and, yes, I am divorced), fornication, contraception, homosexual activity, and to get away from matters surrounding the Sixth and Ninth Commandments, institutionalized exploitation of workers ("do more with less", hiring as few people as possible and squeezing all the work you can out of them in the name of profit), the legalization of soft narcotics, the desacralization of Sundays, and so on. Those are values that society accepts, but we as followers of Christ cannot. The Spanish missionaries didn't find the Mesoamericans practicing human sacrifice, and say "oh, this is a value of this society that we have to adopt". Ditto for polygamy in cultures influenced by Islam and indigenous beliefs. Ditto for earth-based spirituality among the pagan peoples of Europe. And so on. To be fair, the Church did adopt certain Roman civic virtues as her own --- pietas, clementia, humanitas, and so on --- but these were values compatible with the Gospel in the first place. If Roman society hadn't already had those values, the Church would have had to inculcate them.
The vernacular is used not because it is "valued" but because that's the language that one is born in and what is used by others. In short, it's used because of common sense.
You were the one who cited it as a "value".
Comparing the use of the vernacular with practicing human sacrifice is ridiculous.
And I did not do this. I merely used human sacrifice as an example of a "value" that the Church did not adopt just because she encountered a culture that practiced it.
There's no correlation between the use of Latin and Roman civic virtues. If any, the Empire let various cultures do as they wish as long as they didn't create trouble and didn't stop paying tribute.
I didn't say there was. I was using Roman civic virtues as an example of how the Church did embrace values that were not inimical to the Gospel. Roman culture was one that was "ripe" for the Gospel and just needed conversion to embody truth in its fullness. Aquinas did the same thing with the teachings of Aristotle, i.e., he "baptized" them.
|
|
|
Post by tisbearself on Aug 30, 2023 0:35:47 GMT
|
|
|
Post by homeschooldad on Aug 30, 2023 1:22:23 GMT
I'm going to be perfectly honest, and say that being around like-minded people, serious Catholics who prefer quiet, reverent worship, is one of many things that I like about the TLM. Of course, I'm going to say this, and then get criticism for wanting to be part of an "elite" and not get myself dirty by having to be among Catholics who run the gamut from being just unapathetic enough about the Faith to show up for Mass, to those who are far holier than I am (which might not be saying much). It's only human nature, if given the choice, to prefer to be among like-minded people, people with whom you have more in common, than not to be among them. But I'd still prefer the TLM, and show up for it, regardless of who else were there or not there. And TLM adherents are a more diverse group than they are generally given credit for being. As I've said before, man-buns and tattoos can be seen on any given Sunday, along with veils and beefy middle-aged guys carrying those huge, thick missals. (Or any combination thereof.) And on a day when the TLM is the only easily accessible Mass in the parish (as on some holy days), you will see shorts and logo T-shirts. Glad to have them. Todos, todos, todos.
|
|
|
Post by tisbearself on Aug 30, 2023 1:42:28 GMT
I'm going to be perfectly honest, and say that being around like-minded people, serious Catholics who prefer quiet, reverent worship, is one of many things that I like about the TLM. Of course, I'm going to say this, and then get criticism for wanting to be part of an "elite" and not get myself dirty by having to be among Catholics who run the gamut from being just unapathetic enough about the Faith to show up for Mass, to those who are far holier than I am (which might not be saying much). It's only human nature, if given the choice, to prefer to be among like-minded people, people with whom you have more in common, than not to be among them. But I'd still prefer the TLM, and show up for it, regardless of who else were there or not there. And TLM adherents are a more diverse group than they are generally given credit for being. As I've said before, man-buns and tattoos can be seen on any given Sunday, along with veils and beefy middle-aged guys carrying those huge, thick missals. (Or any combination thereof.) And on a day when the TLM is the only easily accessible Mass in the parish (as on some holy days), you will see shorts and logo T-shirts. Glad to have them. Todos, todos, todos.It's pleasant for me to be in any Catholic church where people don't immediately start hollering to each other like Shouty Man the minute the priest leaves the altar after Mass. One of my regular churches always has a nice organ postlude that I like to stay in the pew and listen to, and invariably some person near me will find one of their friends and start having a LOUD conversation during it, shouting over the music basically. A couple times I have gotten up and moved seats to get away from this. It's one thing if people want to pray out loud after Mass, but if you just want to talk and laugh loudly about some secular chitchat, take it outside, or out in the vestibule, or at minimum move to the back of the church worship space, don't stand there a few pews from the sanctuary yakking it up for 10 minutes.
|
|
|
Post by homeschooldad on Aug 30, 2023 1:59:42 GMT
I'm going to be perfectly honest, and say that being around like-minded people, serious Catholics who prefer quiet, reverent worship, is one of many things that I like about the TLM. Of course, I'm going to say this, and then get criticism for wanting to be part of an "elite" and not get myself dirty by having to be among Catholics who run the gamut from being just unapathetic enough about the Faith to show up for Mass, to those who are far holier than I am (which might not be saying much). It's only human nature, if given the choice, to prefer to be among like-minded people, people with whom you have more in common, than not to be among them. But I'd still prefer the TLM, and show up for it, regardless of who else were there or not there. And TLM adherents are a more diverse group than they are generally given credit for being. As I've said before, man-buns and tattoos can be seen on any given Sunday, along with veils and beefy middle-aged guys carrying those huge, thick missals. (Or any combination thereof.) And on a day when the TLM is the only easily accessible Mass in the parish (as on some holy days), you will see shorts and logo T-shirts. Glad to have them. Todos, todos, todos.It's pleasant for me to be in any Catholic church where people don't immediately start hollering to each other like Shouty Man the minute the priest leaves the altar after Mass. One of my regular churches always has a nice organ postlude that I like to stay in the pew and listen to, and invariably some person near me will find one of their friends and start having a LOUD conversation during it, shouting over the music basically. A couple times I have gotten up and moved seats to get away from this. It's one thing if people want to pray out loud after Mass, but if you just want to talk and laugh loudly about some secular chitchat, take it outside, or out in the vestibule, or at minimum move to the back of the church worship space, don't stand there a few pews from the sanctuary yakking it up for 10 minutes. I have found that the more "progressive" the parish is, the sooner the cacophony begins, and the louder it is. At the parish associated with my son's former Catholic school, about 30 seconds after the end of the recessional, the nave sounds like there is a gaggle of geese cackling, or like something out of The Birds. The longer they talk, the louder they get. One time a woman had a clipboard in her hand, and laid it on the altar while she engaged in some kind of loud, animated conversation with another person standing there. The altar of God is not a coffee table. The TLM is totally different. People file out slowly, some staying 5 to 10 minutes to make a proper thanksgiving, but when you get out to the vestibule, they are the friendliest, most talkative people you will ever meet. They're not unfriendly, they just save it for the appropriate time and place.
|
|
|
Post by ralfy on Aug 30, 2023 2:44:51 GMT
It isn't saying what you said. It says that a Latin Bible was commissioned because Latin was becoming the pre-dominant language in the Western Empire. Greek still prevailed in the East. I don't think people we no longer speaking the languages spoken by Jesus and the Apostles. Those languages, e.g. Aramaic, Hebrew, are still spoken.
Pre-dominant doesn't mean other languages are no longer spoken.
|
|
|
Post by ralfy on Aug 30, 2023 2:59:54 GMT
These threads always tend to show who actually goes to TLM and who just reads a lot of strange stuff on the Internet. I admit I don't go to TLM. Thanks for explaining.
Interestingly enough, I've spoken to old people in poor countries who grew up with the EF, and most of them don't want to go back to it and prefer the OF. Their reasons:
The priest kept mumbling and they couldn't understand what he was saying. So they either just prayed a novena, the rosary, or stared at the altar.
They didn't understand Latin.
They want to respond and sing along with the choir because it makes them feel that it makes the parish a community.
In addition,
They say that if there's anything lacking, it's not the EF but Churches and priests. There aren't enough of both in much of the Catholic World, which is mostly poor. And since many don't want to be priests, nuns, or brothers, they also need more lay ministers and volunteers.
Most even don't understand English, so seeing that as a replacement for Latin also doesn't make sense. And they want better translations.
They also lack missalettes (never mind Missals, which are very expensive), Bibles, religious education (because most families can't afford private school, and the education has to be even basic), and even things like sound systems and organs. That's also why they have to use guitars, as those are a lot cheaper than organs and pianos.
The problem is a combination of a laity that's more aggressive and at the same time lost, plus a Church that lacks resources to deal with that. Hence,
Choirs that are so excited and enthusiastic they want to use the equivalent of pop songs at Mass. Do you quash them in the name of sacredness and contemplation or imagine this is another gift from the Holy Spirit?
More than half show up late for Mass, with some arriving during the sermon. And that's taking place given major shortages in Churches and priests such that even with a 40-pct drop in daily attendance Churches are still full during weekends. What will happen if you become strict and close the doors and don't let them in? What are the chances that offerings will drop such that you won't be able to cover things like electric bills?
This is what happens when the well-off in North America and Europe live in some sort of vacuum, imagining that the Catholic World is what they think it should be, especially given the fact that they have to now import priests from the Third World that lacks such given population aging, and where increasing debt allows for easy credit, and thus more money for salaries, etc.
If any, that's the context behind an obsession with the EF that's not said.
|
|
|
Post by ralfy on Aug 30, 2023 3:08:33 GMT
The vernacular is used not because it is "valued" but because that's the language that one is born in and what is used by others. In short, it's used because of common sense.
You were the one who cited it as a "value".
Comparing the use of the vernacular with practicing human sacrifice is ridiculous.
And I did not do this. I merely used human sacrifice as an example of a "value" that the Church did not adopt just because she encountered a culture that practiced it.
There's no correlation between the use of Latin and Roman civic virtues. If any, the Empire let various cultures do as they wish as long as they didn't create trouble and didn't stop paying tribute.
I didn't say there was. I was using Roman civic virtues as an example of how the Church did embrace values that were not inimical to the Gospel. Roman culture was one that was "ripe" for the Gospel and just needed conversion to embody truth in its fullness. Aquinas did the same thing with the teachings of Aristotle, i.e., he "baptized" them.
By "value," I mean characteristics. The vernacular is used by a society not because they selected it in place of another language.
The comparison is ridiculous you're still trying to compare the vernacular with human sacrifice. The Church did not adopt the latter because it's obviously wrong. It adopted the former because it makes sense.
The vernacular is not inimical to the Gospel. Jesus spoke Aramaic because that's the language that they used, although before more educated people He and the Apostles also probably used Greek. Latin was also probably used for the same reason. This is also the reason why the Holy Spirit, which you kept mentioning in various threads, gave the Apostles the gift of speaking in tongues instead of making everyone understand Latin.
Also, Roman civic virtues appeared before the Gospel did, but the Romans didn't impose them. As long as conquered people didn't cause trouble and gave tribute, then they could do what they wanted. That's why Jesus was turned over to His own people, with the Romans executing the will of the same in order to gain their support.
|
|
|
Post by ralfy on Aug 30, 2023 3:40:45 GMT
Some argue that many of them already have a conservative outlook, which means they will turn to the EF. Meanwhile, the EF is not spreading in countries that are just as conservative as they are, if not even more. Why's that?
Because most people don't understand Latin, and many even have difficulty understanding English. They even want their Bibles in the vernacular.
For them, conservatism isn't going to the EF because it's more reverent but going to a OF Mass that's implemented correctly. What does "correctly" mean? It means following the GIRM but also what people are used to, which means the equivalent of old songs ("old" doesn't mean something from the Renaissance but from the last hundred years or so) and similar to folk songs. Here's an example, with the "Our Father" in the vernacular and sung in the old way:
Why the microphones and all that? Believe it or not, some societies love to sing, and others even to dance and sing. Why is this seen as an "old" way of singing. Because that's how their forefathers sang it. Why a revision? Because they're young and sing differently.
Also, notice people doing the orans? That would also drive a trad nuts, but that's part of some societies which are now becoming the dominant part of the Catholic Church, and the Church has accepted it:
and has even allowed the laity to hold hands:
Related notes:
That choir is part of a Mass involving overseas workers in Kuwait, which also explains why they have better facilities like sound systems. The poverty rate in the predominantly Catholic country is so high many have to find work abroad.
Also, even the vernacular used for the song is archaic, or something from previous centuries. During the homily, the priest would speak to a more modern version of the vernacular, which involves including Spanish and English words. Sometimes, they would even code switch, e.g., Taglish or Englog, or a combination of Tagalog (the very old language and basis of Filipino) and English (and Philippine English, too, e.g., saying "already" as "al-raydee").
Many of them look young. That's because the Philippines is one of the youngest countries that's about to enter the group of newly industrialized countries. It still has not only high birth rates but even high teenage pregnancies because it doesn't support artificial birth control. It's also the only country in the world besides the Vatican that does not allow divorce.
Finally, when asked what "conservative" means, I think they and their peers from much of the Catholic World that's poor would not refer to the EF, etc., but to practices that their grandparents and some still do. For example, here's a "Pabasa" or reading the Passion that spans multiple days and is centuries old:
Sounds annoying, or like an Islamic call to prayer? I think it uses pre-Hispanic ancient chant forms, which means they are likely as old as Western civilization itself. Here's a newer version, and "newer" means from the late nineteenth century and inspired by Spain:
Would you attend such? Most young Catholics won't because it's long and boring.
|
|
|
Post by tth1 on Aug 30, 2023 12:19:54 GMT
It isn't saying what you said. It says that a Latin Bible was commissioned because Latin was becoming the pre-dominant language in the Western Empire. Greek still prevailed in the East. I don't think people we no longer speaking the languages spoken by Jesus and the Apostles. Those languages, e.g. Aramaic, Hebrew, are still spoken.
Pre-dominant doesn't mean other languages are no longer spoken.
I know that it does not mean that other languages are not spoken. I did not write that it does. You have taken one adjective and made it the focus of what I wrote, which it was not. You have done your favourite trick of twisting the meaning in an attempt to divert the discussion from what it was about. I cannot be bothered to play that silly game. Consequently, I shall no longer engage in discussions with you.
|
|