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Post by homeschooldad on Aug 27, 2023 7:26:38 GMT
catholicherald.co.uk/the-demographics-of-the-traditional-latin-mass/“We have to go much further in adopting the values of the society around us to make the Church more like society to bring back the young people”.No. Just no. Or to use the phrase common in urban American speech, "oh, hell no!".As far as "bringing back the young people", looks like the TLM is doing a pretty good job of that.
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Post by ralfy on Aug 28, 2023 2:10:57 GMT
Adopting the values of society around them is ironically the basis of Catholicism. For example, Latin itself was used because more no longer understood languages that Jesus and the Apostles used.
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Post by iagosan on Aug 28, 2023 8:34:43 GMT
Adopting the values of society around them is ironically the basis of Catholicism. For example, Latin itself was used because more no longer understood languages that Jesus and the Apostles used. Yet St Augustine in "The City of God" (written at the time of the collapse of the Roman Empire by attacks from barbarians, so not too different from our current situation) distinguished between the eternal City of God and the temporal City of Man—two rival cities shaped by opposing loves and working toward different ends, did he not?
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bluekumul
Full Member
Christian humanist, democratic socialist, world citizen
Posts: 199
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Post by bluekumul on Aug 28, 2023 11:47:22 GMT
Young people? I hope they aren't the manosphere guys who want to pickup "trad wives".
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Post by tth1 on Aug 28, 2023 13:06:38 GMT
For example, Latin itself was used because more no longer understood languages that Jesus and the Apostles used. The evidence for this is?
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bluekumul
Full Member
Christian humanist, democratic socialist, world citizen
Posts: 199
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Post by bluekumul on Aug 28, 2023 14:44:44 GMT
For example, Latin itself was used because more no longer understood languages that Jesus and the Apostles used. I've thought Greek and Latin were considered "universal" languages like English today, while Hebrew or Aramaic would be "barbaric" according to ancient Romans.
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Post by homeschooldad on Aug 28, 2023 14:45:20 GMT
Adopting the values of society around them is ironically the basis of Catholicism. For example, Latin itself was used because more no longer understood languages that Jesus and the Apostles used. Yet St Augustine in "The City of God" (written at the time of the collapse of the Roman Empire by attacks from barbarians, so not too different from our current situation) distinguished between the eternal City of God and the temporal City of Man—two rival cities shaped by opposing loves and working toward different ends, did he not?Quite right. Whom does the Bible say the "prince of this world" is? Hint: it's not Jesus. I don't normally think of a desire for the vernacular as a "value", I had in mind more things such as acceptance of abortion, divorce (and, yes, I am divorced), fornication, contraception, homosexual activity, and to get away from matters surrounding the Sixth and Ninth Commandments, institutionalized exploitation of workers ("do more with less", hiring as few people as possible and squeezing all the work you can out of them in the name of profit), the legalization of soft narcotics, the desacralization of Sundays, and so on. Those are values that society accepts, but we as followers of Christ cannot. The Spanish missionaries didn't find the Mesoamericans practicing human sacrifice, and say "oh, this is a value of this society that we have to adopt". Ditto for polygamy in cultures influenced by Islam and indigenous beliefs. Ditto for earth-based spirituality among the pagan peoples of Europe. And so on. To be fair, the Church did adopt certain Roman civic virtues as her own --- pietas, clementia, humanitas, and so on --- but these were values compatible with the Gospel in the first place. If Roman society hadn't already had those values, the Church would have had to inculcate them.
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Post by homeschooldad on Aug 28, 2023 14:46:45 GMT
For example, Latin itself was used because more no longer understood languages that Jesus and the Apostles used. I've thought Greek and Latin were considered "universal" languages like English today, while Hebrew or Aramaic would be "barbaric" according to ancient Romans. Greek was the "English" of its day, either a primary language or a lingua franca throughout much of the Roman Empire.
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Post by homeschooldad on Aug 28, 2023 14:51:41 GMT
Young people? I hope they aren't the manosphere guys who want to pickup "trad wives". I've never heard of a wife-seeking man, with no other attachment to traditional Catholicism, seeking out the TLM solely for this purpose, but on the flip side, a woman who seeks to have a large family and to be a stay-at-home wife could have an analogous goal.
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Post by farronwolf on Aug 28, 2023 17:41:58 GMT
Adopting the values of society around them is ironically the basis of Catholicism. For example, Latin itself was used because more no longer understood languages that Jesus and the Apostles used. My understanding is that Latin was used as a base which all could communicate through. Think of a wagon wheel, with Latin as the hub of the wheel and all other languages being at the end of the spokes of the wheel. If someone within the Church needed to communicate to each of the spokes it started in Latin. If one of the spokes needed to communicate with another spoke (different language which they didn't speak), they would go to the hub (Latin) and thereby the other spoke would be able to understand the communication from the original spoke (language). In the very early Church, there were very few spokes, but as the Church grew, it started looking like those fancy wheels on the classic cars.
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Post by homeschooldad on Aug 28, 2023 17:52:01 GMT
Adopting the values of society around them is ironically the basis of Catholicism. For example, Latin itself was used because more no longer understood languages that Jesus and the Apostles used. My understanding is that Latin was used as a base which all could communicate through. Think of a wagon wheel, with Latin as the hub of the wheel and all other languages being at the end of the spokes of the wheel. If someone within the Church needed to communicate to each of the spokes it started in Latin. If one of the spokes needed to communicate with another spoke (different language which they didn't speak), they would go to the hub (Latin) and thereby the other spoke would be able to understand the communication from the original spoke (language). In the very early Church, there were very few spokes, but as the Church grew, it started looking like those fancy wheels on the classic cars. That is kind of like English is today in Europe. If, say, a Frenchman who doesn't speak German, but does speak at least some English, wants to speak to a German who doesn't speak French but does speak at least some English, he will use... English. And as to Scandinavians who speak similar languages, but different enough to preclude easy communication, they likewise resort to English. They start learning English in elementary school. Many universities in Europe use English at least in graduate classes, regardless of the native language of the institution. Maastricht University in the Netherlands has English as its primary language of instruction. IOW, English is the "Latin" of 21st-century Europe.
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Post by ralfy on Aug 29, 2023 10:11:47 GMT
Adopting the values of society around them is ironically the basis of Catholicism. For example, Latin itself was used because more no longer understood languages that Jesus and the Apostles used. Yet St Augustine in "The City of God" (written at the time of the collapse of the Roman Empire by attacks from barbarians, so not too different from our current situation) distinguished between the eternal City of God and the temporal City of Man—two rival cities shaped by opposing loves and working toward different ends, did he not?
I think the "The City of God" referred to a heavenly New Jerusalem.
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Post by ralfy on Aug 29, 2023 10:15:22 GMT
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Post by ralfy on Aug 29, 2023 10:17:53 GMT
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Post by ralfy on Aug 29, 2023 10:22:55 GMT
Yet St Augustine in "The City of God" (written at the time of the collapse of the Roman Empire by attacks from barbarians, so not too different from our current situation) distinguished between the eternal City of God and the temporal City of Man—two rival cities shaped by opposing loves and working toward different ends, did he not? Quite right. Whom does the Bible say the "prince of this world" is? Hint: it's not Jesus. I don't normally think of a desire for the vernacular as a "value", I had in mind more things such as acceptance of abortion, divorce (and, yes, I am divorced), fornication, contraception, homosexual activity, and to get away from matters surrounding the Sixth and Ninth Commandments, institutionalized exploitation of workers ("do more with less", hiring as few people as possible and squeezing all the work you can out of them in the name of profit), the legalization of soft narcotics, the desacralization of Sundays, and so on. Those are values that society accepts, but we as followers of Christ cannot. The Spanish missionaries didn't find the Mesoamericans practicing human sacrifice, and say "oh, this is a value of this society that we have to adopt". Ditto for polygamy in cultures influenced by Islam and indigenous beliefs. Ditto for earth-based spirituality among the pagan peoples of Europe. And so on. To be fair, the Church did adopt certain Roman civic virtues as her own --- pietas, clementia, humanitas, and so on --- but these were values compatible with the Gospel in the first place. If Roman society hadn't already had those values, the Church would have had to inculcate them.
The vernacular is used not because it is "valued" but because that's the language that one is born in and what is used by others. In short, it's used because of common sense.
Comparing the use of the vernacular with practicing human sacrifice is ridiculous.
There's no correlation between the use of Latin and Roman civic virtues. If any, the Empire let various cultures do as they wish as long as they didn't create trouble and didn't stop paying tribute.
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