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Post by homeschooldad on Mar 25, 2021 14:18:17 GMT
Not sure how much grassroots support there is for this, and I don't believe I've ever seen it discussed, but I'd like to propose making the Annunciation a non-transferable, non-dispensed (not even if it falls on a Saturday or a Monday), full-fledged HDO.
This would underscore the Church's teaching on life beginning at conception --- whether ensouled or not, the Church does not teach definitively on this, but a unique human life that will not end unless someone acts to end it in the womb --- and would be an occasion for priests to preach on the sanctity of unborn human life. (Not to be tacky, but perhaps take up a collection for mothers and even families with improvident pregnancies?)
Catholics should not speak of "I'm going to be a father (or mother)", "when the baby comes into the world", and so on. You already ARE a parent, and the baby is already here --- it's just a matter of location.
Any thoughts?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2021 15:28:17 GMT
I don't believe any day should be a Holy Day of Obligation.
We should go to Mass because we desire to be close to Christ and don't need the church to threaten us with committing mortal sin if we don't go to Mass.
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Post by homeschooldad on Mar 26, 2021 0:39:44 GMT
I don't believe any day should be a Holy Day of Obligation. We should go to Mass because we desire to be close to Christ and don't need the church to threaten us with committing mortal sin if we don't go to Mass. You know, just being as totally honest as I can be, I agree with you. I'm not one to talk about my feelings, and I am too old to allow myself to be easily embarrassed anymore --- life is too short for such nonsense --- but I have always found it just a little stultifying and, yes, embarrassing, to have to admit to non-Catholics that the Church binds us to go to Mass on Sundays and HDOs under pain of mortal sin. It really has horrible optics. It looks like we are being told "see here, you little spiritual guttersnipes, we know you wouldn't go to Mass if we left it totally up to you, so we bind you under the authority given to us by Christ Himself, either be there (unless there is an excusing cause), or you lose your salvation, just because we say so". You are quite right, we should go because we want to, not because we "have" to.
However, there is the commandment to keep holy the Sabbath day. In a general sense, this does indeed bind us to go to Mass, so in one way, even if there were no Church-mandated "Sunday obligation", there would be the divine commandment. Does this commandment go so far, as to mean "Mass every Sunday or mortal sin"? I don't know. I can well foresee that there could be this Sunday or that, that you could say "look, I've had a hard week, I need some down time, this weekend needs to be 'me time', I won't do unnecessary servile work, or unnecessary shopping, or anything like that, and I'll be mindful that this is the Lord's Day, but as far as going to Mass, I need a week off". But bearing in mind the "Sunday obligation", you have to say "no, you can't pamper yourself like that, you have an obligation, so get yourself in gear, get there, and give the Lord two hours". (And it is two hours, not one, by the time you get ready, drive there, find a place to park, assist at Mass itself, drive back home, and so on.)
But the discipline of the Church is what it is, and we can't think that the Holy Spirit has allowed the Church to overstep its bounds for millennia. It may be "just a discipline", but there's a little more to it than that. If there have to be HDOs, it is hard for me to imagine one more significant than the Incarnation. If the College of Cardinals were to go totally insane and elect me Pope, this might be one of the first changes I'd make.
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Post by ratioetfides on Mar 26, 2021 2:45:20 GMT
I don't believe any day should be a Holy Day of Obligation. We should go to Mass because we desire to be close to Christ and don't need the church to threaten us with committing mortal sin if we don't go to Mass. The idea failing to attend mass or eating a certain food or certain amount on a given day may or may not be ‘sinful’ depending upon where in the world one is currently located or domiciled seems to stretch fundamental ideas of logic, reason, and justice. The ‘sinfulness,’ or lack thereof, of eating certain foods or certain amounts on given days due to age seems to do the same. It may be ‘sinful’ to eat a certain food or certain amount of food on a given day one week, yet an intervening birthday may render the consumption of the same food or same amount on the same day the next week perfectly free of ‘sin.’
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Post by homeschooldad on Mar 26, 2021 5:09:17 GMT
I don't believe any day should be a Holy Day of Obligation. We should go to Mass because we desire to be close to Christ and don't need the church to threaten us with committing mortal sin if we don't go to Mass. The idea failing to attend mass or eating a certain food or certain amount on a given day may or may not be ‘sinful’ depending upon where in the world one is currently located or domiciled seems to stretch fundamental ideas of logic, reason, and justice. The ‘sinfulness,’ or lack thereof, of eating certain foods or certain amounts on given days due to age seems to do the same. It may be ‘sinful’ to eat a certain food or certain amount of food on a given day one week, yet an intervening birthday may render the consumption of the same food or same amount on the same day the next week perfectly free of ‘sin.’ Establishing such disciplinary matters is part of the binding and loosing authority of the Church. Evidently the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, knows that if she did not prescribe a Mass obligation, many people would just never go, and likewise, if she did not prescribe some token dietary penance, many people would never do any penance at all.
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Post by ratioetfides on Mar 26, 2021 7:27:05 GMT
The idea failing to attend mass or eating a certain food or certain amount on a given day may or may not be ‘sinful’ depending upon where in the world one is currently located or domiciled seems to stretch fundamental ideas of logic, reason, and justice. The ‘sinfulness,’ or lack thereof, of eating certain foods or certain amounts on given days due to age seems to do the same. It may be ‘sinful’ to eat a certain food or certain amount of food on a given day one week, yet an intervening birthday may render the consumption of the same food or same amount on the same day the next week perfectly free of ‘sin.’ Establishing such disciplinary matters is part of the binding and loosing authority of the Church. Evidently the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, knows that if she did not prescribe a Mass obligation, many people would just never go, and likewise, if she did not prescribe some token dietary penance, many people would never do any penance at all. This may suggest the Holy Spirit acknowledges a multi-variance of human nature and the accompanying needs/duties for worship and penance based upon geographic location, age, or rite. Additionally this may raise the question; do humans, specifically juridically Catholic humans, have varying needs/duties for worship and penance based upon geographic location, age, or rite? Does the willingness of The Church to bind or loose such ‘sin’ hinge upon a member’s location, age, or rite?
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Post by homeschooldad on Mar 26, 2021 13:24:45 GMT
Establishing such disciplinary matters is part of the binding and loosing authority of the Church. Evidently the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, knows that if she did not prescribe a Mass obligation, many people would just never go, and likewise, if she did not prescribe some token dietary penance, many people would never do any penance at all. This may suggest the Holy Spirit acknowledges a multi-variance of human nature and the accompanying needs/duties for worship and penance based upon geographic location, age, or rite. Additionally this may raise the question; do humans, specifically juridically Catholic humans, have varying needs/duties for worship and penance based upon geographic location, age, or rite? Does the willingness of The Church to bind or loose such ‘sin’ hinge upon a member’s location, age, or rite? Not an individual member, but her willingness to adjust (or "seeing the desirability or willingness of adjusting") her disciplines does, it seems, vary according to culture, circumstances, traditional practices, and possibly even contemporary sensibilities. Sunday Mass attendance is pretty much a universal --- to my knowledge, no Catholic culture has ever been without it, and the Orthodox have similar expectations of their faithful. What is eaten, or not eaten, during penitential times, is supposed to track what the food of poor people would be like. (The question that begs to be asked and answered, then, is what do poor people who already eat like that, do for penance? You could ask the same about today's deliberate vegetarians.) Some cultures, such as India, hardly even eat meat. Others, such as Argentina and Serbia, are very meat-centered in their diets. Likewise, fasting has varied from one time and place to another.
Our modern lives throw up unique and hitherto unknown obstacles to such things as non-Sunday HDO Mass attendance and substantial fasting. How is everyone supposed to go to Mass if, let's say, the Feast of the Immaculate Conception falls on a Tuesday --- you have to do the school run, commute to work yourself, possibly be called upon to work late, go pick up the kids, wonder how you're going to squeeze in dinner and time for homework, and pile the family in the vehicle and go to Mass on top of all that? This is not a Catholic culture where the whole country shuts down, as does, say, Germany on the Feast of the Assumption (I've been there, trust me, it does shut down!) I would not have a problem in the world with the Church in the US transferring all HDOs to the following Sunday.
My comments about the Incarnation being a non-transferable HDO are probably, then, more aspirational than anything else.
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Post by katy777 on Mar 26, 2021 17:45:25 GMT
Yes it is.
If it falls on a Saturday or Monday, it is celebrated Sunday.
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Post by jimrocds on Mar 26, 2021 21:09:02 GMT
The problem I have as I studied the history of the Church, there was at one time 37 more Holy Days of Obligation than we have now and this didn't include Sundays, Christmas or Easter. What happened to the mortal sins of those who failed to attend Mass on those days ?
I grew up in the pre-Vatican II Church and remember the mandate to abstain from meat on Fridays and how mother's were told they would commit mortal sin if they served a meat dish on Friday to their children, which they reheated forgetting it was Friday.
Do you really think God would be merciless towards these mothers ?
I have faith in Christ Jesus the 2nd person of the Holy Trinity.
Each morning I pray the LOTHS and read how merciful God is. I place my trust in Him.
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Post by homeschooldad on Mar 27, 2021 0:12:34 GMT
The problem I have as I studied the history of the Church, there was at one time 37 more Holy Days of Obligation than we have now and this didn't include Sundays, Christmas or Easter. What happened to the mortal sins of those who failed to attend Mass on those days ? I grew up in the pre-Vatican II Church and remember the mandate to abstain from meat on Fridays and how mother's were told they would commit mortal sin if they served a meat dish on Friday to their children, which they reheated forgetting it was Friday. Do you really think God would be merciless towards these mothers ? I have faith in Christ Jesus the 2nd person of the Holy Trinity. Each morning I pray the LOTHS and read how merciful God is. I place my trust in Him. I cannot speak to whether people who missed Mass on these days committed a mortal sin or not. Deliberately missing Mass on Sundays or an HDO, without excusing cause, has traditionally been regarded as grave matter by the Church. In those days, when as you say there were 37 HDOs, many societies in which large numbers of Catholics lived, basically closed down on those days, and they were treated as "additional sabbaths", you could say. Even though they are not HDOs, Poland pretty much shuts down from Holy Thursday through Easter Monday, people just "get" this, and not much is expected of anyone, time is basically spent in church and with family. In such cultures, you would have to make a deliberate decision not to join your fellow townsfolk at Mass, and it would not be seen well or approved of.
Forgetting and eating meat on Fridays is no sin. It is only when you remember, and continue eating, that it becomes mortally sinful matter.
I do believe that Almighty God would be supremely merciful to anyone caught in difficult circumstances. This said, Catholics must recognize that they are under the discipline of the Church, and that certain things are just required of them, as part of that discipline. It's not difficult, though, to imagine that a Catholic mother might inadvertently prepare meat-based food for her family, have it all ready, it then dawns upon her that it's Friday (and nobody reminded her beforehand), everyone's hungry, there is no time to fix anything new, and it's all they have to eat. I think a slip-up like that could be excused, not even be a venial sin, if there were grave enough reasons to go ahead and serve the food. The prohibition is far from absolute. (See Jone, Moral Theology, for more details.)
I have to think that, if there is no reasonable way to provide for the Church's discipline in an individual case, common sense can inform conscience, and the person can proceed to do whatever is needed --- missing Mass, being forced by circumstances to eat meat, and so on --- without the slightest scruple. The Gospel is about far more than following disciplines such as these --- not that they are to be dismissed lightly, but that there is a greater message involved in it all. Christianity is about more than dietary penance.
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Post by homeschooldad on Mar 27, 2021 0:17:22 GMT
Yes it is. If it falls on a Saturday or Monday, it is celebrated Sunday. I'm not clear on what you are replying to. Could you elaborate?
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Post by katy777 on Mar 27, 2021 0:32:07 GMT
Hi Homeschool Dad If it falls on a Saturday or Monday, the church celebrates the feasts on Sunday. .
As for other things, today I called a Jewish friend who was off and the local school lights were not flashing because it's Passover. As a Catholic you have every legal right to stay home/be late for work as do your children to attend HDOs.
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Post by homeschooldad on Mar 27, 2021 3:11:26 GMT
Hi Homeschool Dad If it falls on a Saturday or Monday, the church celebrates the feasts on Sunday. .
As for other things, today I called a Jewish friend who was off and the local school lights were not flashing because it's Passover. As a Catholic you have every legal right to stay home/be late for work as do your children to attend HDOs.
Were these public schools or Jewish schools? And what would flashing lights have to do with it? As far as I am aware, Passover is not treated like the Jewish sabbath (Friday sundown to Saturday sundown) when electrical devices may not be turned on because that is considered "lighting a fire", a forbidden activity on the sabbath.
You are correct, employers may not deny reasonable accommodation for the practice of one's religion, which for Catholics would include HDOs. The larger non-Catholic society generally doesn't understand the concept, unless it were Good Friday which is not even an HDO. I worked for a very toxic employer who refused to hire the people necessary to get the job done, so I did the work of two and sometimes three people, and generally had to work Saturdays to try to get caught up. I arranged for HDOs to the best of my ability.
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Post by katy777 on Mar 27, 2021 11:29:35 GMT
The lights flash on sign on the side of the road that school is in session and you have to slow down to 25 mph. The normal speed limit is 45. This is the public highschool I drove by, but all schools in my state have these flashing signs in a school zone.
So public schools must have been closed for Passover..
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Post by homeschooldad on Mar 27, 2021 14:34:50 GMT
The lights flash on sign on the side of the road that school is in session and you have to slow down to 25 mph. The normal speed limit is 45. This is the public highschool I drove by, but all schools in my state have these flashing signs in a school zone. So public schools must have been closed for Passover.. Sounds likely. I don't know what part of the country you live in, but if there were a substantial Jewish population, I could easily foresee that.
And just as an example of what can happen when a person has too much time on their hands , I have wondered, if Chick-fil-a were ever to open in Israel, would they close on Sundays, on the Jewish sabbath, or both?
Their signature chicken filet sandwich is not all that far removed from chicken schnitzel, which is widely enjoyed in the Jewish world. And except for the butter on the bun (mixing milchig with fleischig), it would be entirely kosher. And I know, I once asked this question too, how can Jews be prohibited from mixing fowl with milk, as fowls do not lactate? It seems that it is a rabbinical prohibition, not one from the Torah:
I'm assuming seafood au gratin would be allowed. And think of lox and cream cheese on a bagel.
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