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Post by homeschooldad on Aug 4, 2021 2:20:05 GMT
I ask this question for obvious reasons.
I know we may invoke the departed, and seek their intercession and obtaining of graces for us, as a private devotion. And I know that we may not engage in necromancy or things like seances.
But as far as merely "talking to them", addressing them, sharing things with them, without expecting two-way communication, how is this problematical?
So far, I have been "getting around this" by asking my dear father to intercede for my mother, my son, and me, to obtain for us the graces and wisdom to deal with this difficult time. But just as the Hail Mary itself begins with this salutation to Our Lady, and addressing her glories without having yet asked for anything --- that comes at the very end --- might we be able to address our loved ones similarly? Share a joke or a wry observation along the lines of "yes, Dad, I know you never liked to see me waste money", and so on?
Do we as Catholics have any specific "guidelines" on this, aside from, as I alluded to above, necromancy or "trying to make them present"?
My "conscience", to use everyone's favorite concept in these days of heresy and error, tells me it's perfectly all right, but I do not follow an a priori "conscience" originating in my own heart and intellect, and then see if the Church agrees with it. Rather, if that primordial, atavistic, "aboriginal Vicar of Christ" tells me one thing, and the Church tells me another, then I smack that "conscience" like a mosquito, squash it before it bites me, flick its scrawny remains off my arm, and conform my mind, heart, will, and intellect, to what the Church teaches. That's what being a Catholic is all about.
This is entirely uncharted territory for me. Will welcome anything that touches on Catholic teaching.
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Post by homeschooldad on Aug 4, 2021 11:47:06 GMT
Bump. Anyone have any ideas?
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Post by katy777 on Aug 4, 2021 13:04:35 GMT
I don't know if this is Catholic teaching but I talk to my mom who left this earth Easter 2020.
I also talk to my dad departed 2004.
And my beloved grandmother. These are just regular conversation. The souls in purgatory can pray for us, just not themselves.
I pray for them too. And ask God and Mary to take care of them..
And have masses, for them, and the poor souls in purgatory.
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Post by pianistclare on Aug 4, 2021 13:35:13 GMT
It's just like talking to the Saints. If your loved one is in heaven they can and will pray for your well-being, your soul, and your intentions.
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Post by glennonp on Aug 4, 2021 13:36:32 GMT
I routinely ask for my departed children to pray for me and my wife...and also my deceased parents and sibling and in-laws. If there's a prohibition against it, I'm not aware of it.
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Post by homeschooldad on Aug 4, 2021 14:41:46 GMT
Thanks to everyone for your good replies. Asking for my father's intercession, and asking him to obtain graces for us from Almighty God, no problem. It's a private devotion, and I realize we can ask anyone who has died, to pray for us in that fashion. I know the souls in heaven can pray for us. The souls in purgatory, I've heard yea and nay, I think the Baltimore Catechism says they can pray for us, I'll have to look it up. There is no "time" in the next life, so precisely where my father "is" at this moment, well, it's useless even to think about it. I have attempted the indulgences, I am having Masses said, and faithful Catholics are praying for him. My own prayers, penances, and having Masses said for him, that will go on the rest of my life.
I was referring to "one-way conversations" that are not explicitly prayers. Seeking "two-way conversations", that would be like a seance, and I know that no, we cannot do that. I probably tell him "thank you" ten times a day, for the good circumstances he left us in --- I deeply dislike discussing money or finances, but his pensions are gone, and if we weren't in such comfortable (not wealthy, just comfortable) straits, I'd have to go back to work, to support my mother, my son, and me. How would homeschooling work then? I had to chuckle the other day, was thinking of taking flowers to his resting place, but then I could imagine him saying "I don't need flowers, you don't have that kind of money to waste, that's the stupidest thing I ever heard of". I then thought of the Jewish custom of placing a small stone. There were some stones in the parking area, I thought "let's find a nice one", I got a bottle of water and thought "you'd want me to wash this off, you wouldn't want me to be handling it dirty", I reasoned "stones are free, so no money wasted", and I laid it near his crypt. Not a dime wasted.
That kind of thinking, is why I don't have to go back to work and neglect my family. Thank you, Dad. My champion and my hero.
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Post by katy777 on Aug 4, 2021 19:37:05 GMT
Your father has a very kind son.
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Post by homeschooldad on Aug 5, 2021 10:28:27 GMT
Your father has a very kind son. Thank you. I do ask you, and everyone else, to pray for her right now --- no doubt you are already doing this --- that she may not be so nervous and panicky over temporal issues, in her mind, all needing to be done at once, immediately, in what I call "the flash of the eternal now". She is a very intelligent woman, never got a higher education, but speaks impeccable English (as did all of my aunts, her sisters, formidable, strong bunch of ladies), and at first wanted all the probate matters, the messed-up bank account, her prescriptions (my father always handled those things), resolved all at the same time. That's not possible and I explained that to her, a fact she now understands. She only has a two-day supply of her blood pressure medication, and at the very least, I have to make that happen today, regardless of whether Walmart takes Medicare or not, whether there is a hefty bill for it or not. It's only 30 days' worth, how bad could that be? Medicare forces the user to get their medicines via mail order, which is a whole welter of problems on its own. It takes an act of Congress, to reach someone who actually knows what they're doing. When you reach an offshore CSR who speaks with a heavy accent and mispronounces the name of your state (yes, that's happened), that hardly inspires confidence.
Such is our life now. Everyone's prayers much appreciated.
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Post by katy777 on Aug 6, 2021 0:30:29 GMT
Be assured I'm praying for your mom.. are you getting support from your siblings? So important. You were blessed lovely parents,beyond measure.
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Post by homeschooldad on Aug 6, 2021 3:02:20 GMT
Be assured I'm praying for your mom.. are you getting support from your siblings? So important. You were blessed lovely parents,beyond measure. I have no siblings. My mother could not have any children after she had me. We both almost died when I was born. Any cousins I have, we have long since lost touch. Haven't talked to any of them in years. There have been issues, that make this for the best.
It is just my mother and my son. Sometimes I wonder if this situation is a gentle call for me to pursue my own declaration of nullity, and should I receive it, to commend myself unto the Will of God to meet someone, perhaps with an extended family of her own, or on the other hand, to remain single. My new pastor was asking me about it the other day. Bachelor life is free and easy, I come and go as I please, I do what I please, but I may pay for that one day, by being all alone. Sad to say, there are also financial holdings that make getting married a weighty proposition.
All in Divine Providence.
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Post by RN69 on Aug 6, 2021 6:41:03 GMT
I don't know if as Catholics we may "talk" to our departed loved ones or not, I just do it in a personal soul to soul way. If we believe in the eternal soul, the Communion of Saints, the Church militant, penitent and triumphant plus the cloud of witnesses as mentioned in the Bible then on a spiritual level, I think it is possible. I wanted to mention an observation that I saw when you said it felt as if your father was waiting for an okay to pass onto the next life. Often that's true. But by his asking that when he did pass for you to take your son on a short trip, I think that he was giving you permission to go on living. It sounds like a happy memory to share with your son at a sad time in your lives. Your mother's affairs are in capable hands I'm sure and her anxiety is reasonable as she makes this transitional change in her life. I'll keep her in my prayers. Hopefully you were able to obtain a 30 day supply of her blood pressure meds and they were a generic Rx. I hated those 90 day mail order pharmacies. No matter which ones our patients used, they were always getting things messed up. Our Drs. usually had the essential prescriptions like BP meds also available at a local pharmacy so it could be a fill in the gap until the mail order ones arrived. Generics are most of the time affordable for you to pay out of pocket so the Medicare payment doesn't get messed up. If not generic then try GoodRx which will give discounts and tell you what it would cost at different pharmacies. Know that if meds are too expensive as a 30 day supply, you can ask pharmacist for a partial fill until the mail order ones have time to get there.
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Post by homeschooldad on Aug 6, 2021 14:08:43 GMT
I don't know if as Catholics we may "talk" to our departed loved ones or not, I just do it in a personal soul to soul way. If we believe in the eternal soul, the Communion of Saints, the Church militant, penitent and triumphant plus the cloud of witnesses as mentioned in the Bible then on a spiritual level, I think it is possible. I wanted to mention an observation that I saw when you said it felt as if your father was waiting for an okay to pass onto the next life. Often that's true. But by his asking that when he did pass for you to take your son on a short trip, I think that he was giving you permission to go on living. It sounds like a happy memory to share with your son at a sad time in your lives. Your mother's affairs are in capable hands I'm sure and her anxiety is reasonable as she makes this transitional change in her life. I'll keep her in my prayers. Hopefully you were able to obtain a 30 day supply of her blood pressure meds and they were a generic Rx. I hated those 90 day mail order pharmacies. No matter which ones our patients used, they were always getting things messed up. Our Drs. usually had the essential prescriptions like BP meds also available at a local pharmacy so it could be a fill in the gap until the mail order ones arrived. Generics are most of the time affordable for you to pay out of pocket so the Medicare payment doesn't get messed up. If not generic then try GoodRx which will give discounts and tell you what it would cost at different pharmacies. Know that if meds are too expensive as a 30 day supply, you can ask pharmacist for a partial fill until the mail order ones have time to get there. Thanks for your good comments. Right now, I am adopting the practice of seeking my father's intercession and obtaining of graces for us, while at the same time addressing him on some level. It would be very easy for it to become a "seance" of sorts, seeking answers such as "help me", "take care of us", "tell me what to do", and so on, and I am not going to go that far. My solution --- "talk to him, but ask for his intercession" --- is a kind of Jesuitical casuistry, similar to the question "can I smoke while I'm praying?", to which the priest said, "well, think of it this way, can you pray while you are smoking?". Are we not to pray ceaselessly? Even when we're smoking, eating, bathing, trimming our tomato plants, cutting the grass, and so on? Sometimes the simplest answers are right in front of our faces.
My father had actually made the comment about the trip when both he and my mother were in good health. He was just saying "when this happens...", I want you to take our grandson out of town for a few days and go on a trip. I think he actually mentioned the exact hotel we went to, pleasant little Holiday Inn Express on the interstate, about four exits out from us, near a pretty little historical town, a real-life Mayberry (mutatis mutandis), walk to Waffle House next door, outdoor pool, easy chairs and Wi-Fi, everything my son could possibly want. We stayed three nights, taking a day "road trip" through the northern part of the state on Day 3, as we had to change rooms and had about four hours to kill in the meantime. My father lost his speech in October of last year. One of the last things, if not the last thing, he ever said to me via speech was "I'm bad off". And he was. He wrote notes for months --- I called him "my Hemingway" --- then, as the end came, he lost that ability too. He was reduced to motioning for "yes" and "no" --- I had to admonish my mother to ask him any questions in a "yes-no" format, she'd ask him long, involved questions about things and he couldn't answer. She just didn't think. I made him an alphabet board to point to letters, and spell out words, and once he lost the ability to do even that, I knew it wouldn't be long.
As far as the prescriptions, the goal is to get everything through CVS Caremark, which offers the best prices. We did Walmart as a stop-gap, and I now have her Lotrel (BP med) for 90 days, as she only had two days' worth left, and she was pleading with me to get it for her, feared she would die without it. Right now, she is resolving in her own mind, the best way to ensure continuity. My suggestion was a non-starter, so I told her, you're the boss, you tell me what you want done, and I will make it so. I thought of GoodRx but that might add an extra layer of complication (I did not mention GoodRx to my mother). I had to use GoodRx in an interim period, after I retired, when I had the worst health insurance imaginable --- they didn't pay for Jack Squat --- but now I am safe in the arms of ACA Blue Cross, and it doesn't get any better than that.
This will all work out. Saturating all of this in prayer is the key.
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Post by StellaMaris on Aug 6, 2021 21:39:50 GMT
When my Dad was in palliative care 2 years ago, a nurse said to me that she didn't know why he was holding on and that I could give him 'permission' to let go. So I assured him that we would take care of Mum and look after her and that he didn't need to worry about that. He died shortly after that.
Since then, my Mum has been diagnosed with dementia and is in aged care and I daily ask Dad to take care of her. I don't know what the Church teaches on this count but it feels natural to me that Dad is with us still and watching out for Mum from heaven.
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Post by homeschooldad on Aug 6, 2021 22:31:56 GMT
When my Dad was in palliative care 2 years ago, a nurse said to me that she didn't know why he was holding on and that I could give him 'permission' to let go. So I assured him that we would take care of Mum and look after her and that he didn't need to worry about that. He died shortly after that. Since then, my Mum has been diagnosed with dementia and is in aged care and I daily ask Dad to take care of her. I don't know what the Church teaches on this count but it feels natural to me that Dad is with us still and watching out for Mum from heaven. As far as I am aware, we can ask anyone who has died, to pray for us and to obtain graces. They do not have to be canonized saints. Indeed, causes for beatification are normally begun by a popular devotion taking place, and then documenting otherwise-unexplainable miracles, that occur seemingly in direct response to seeking this soul's intercession. The Church does not normally canonize until she has such a reason to do so.
This almost discloses more about our family situation than I wish to, but the reality is, my father had social security and three pension checks, all of which ceased at his death. I think that, towards the end, he was thinking of trying to provide this extra money for my mother, my son, and me, as it was the only temporal contribution he could make to us, and every month, after the bills had been paid, that was just X thousand dollars more money in the bank. He could not eat solid food for ten months, and subsisted on this horribly sweet liquid nourishment (Walmart generic for Ensure, high-calorie) as well as cloyingly sweet Mountain Dew soft drink. He knew that if he did not do this, he would starve to death. I'd see him struggling to drink that stuff --- it could get pretty nasty, pretty quickly, if it were your only food --- and thought "this is messed up, this is wrong, he's only hanging on so he can get his pensions". I told him the pensions didn't matter, we'd manage, and if he was just trying to stay alive for that reason, it was okay for him to go.
Thirty minutes later, he was gone. I was not there. According to my mother, he just started shaking, apparently a massive stroke --- that was the official cause of death, God only knows what else he had, we suspected ALS, stomach cancer, Alzheimer's, possibly even cancer having gone to the brain, it doesn't matter anymore, when he finished his last test in October, they so far hadn't been able to find anything, and he said "no more tests, no more doctors, I want to go home [meaning, to die]", we respected this --- and then he was gone just like that. No suffering. Aside from the fact that we were not able to get the priest there in time for Anointing of the Sick --- after a certain point, they don't attempt it --- I can't imagine a better way to die. Never went in a nursing home, never went in hospital, never went in hospice, never had strangers from hospice coming into the home, he died quietly, painlessly, with dignity, with my mother by his side, and I'd been there 20 minutes prior.
He had a pack of Mountain Dew left over. My mother could not stand to see it in the refrigerator, so I took it to our house. When my son and I went on our mini-vacation, I took it with me, thinking "if he could drink it all those months, I can surely drink it, he wasn't one to waste money, and neither am I". It's not so bad. Too sweet for my tastes, but I'll drink it, before I'll throw it away. Wouldn't be my beverage of choice, but it wasn't his either.
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Post by RN69 on Aug 6, 2021 23:14:32 GMT
Yes StellaMaris, I've seen that happen several times as a nurse and I experienced it myself with my Mom. She had end stage CHF and was on Hospice in my home. She had a fairly normal day was aware and alert even after eating a good supper. But later that evening following a phone call from my brother she took a sudden turn for the worse. She continued to struggle to breathe and wasn't responding to the Lasix that I administered per her Drs. advice. Her oxygen wasn't helping her either and her anxiety made her struggle more. The Hospice nurse was on the way as was the Dr who said to give her some of Ativan drops which did help. My daughter was sitting on her left holding her hand and I was on her right stroking her arm telling her to be at peace. We were praying the Divine Mercy Chaplet repeatedly when I could sense she was going by the change in her breathing pattern. Neither the Hospice nurse, her Dr nor the priest made it before her last breath. I think she went quickly because we were with her telling her it was okay to leave and for her to be at peace. Her greatest fear was dying all alone like my father did in a hospital in the middle of the night. My sister had been praying that she go quickly and peacefully and I was praying that she be accompanied to heaven by the Angels. She died on September 29th in a matter of a couple of hours so I feel that both of our prayers were answered. One of my Grief Share sessions provided the following quote as a condolence to those of us on our grief journey. This grief program is Christ based one but not a Catholic Church one but I think the sentiment expressed fits into Catholic teaching. "Those we love don’t go away, they walk beside us every day. Unseen, unheard, but always near; still loved, still missed and very dear” – Anonymous
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