bluekumul
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Christian humanist, democratic socialist, world citizen
Posts: 201
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Post by bluekumul on Oct 9, 2023 15:14:15 GMT
In fact the dislike of Israel on my side of the divide has become so intense I at times feel uncomfortable with the anti-Semitic outbursts some figures have come out with. I believe guvnor that one can believe Israel is an illegitimate state and not be anti-Semitic. I, as somebody of partial Jewish (Lithuanian / Russian) descent deplore anti-Semitism. In my opinion Israel is a fake country but opposing it is not anti-Semitic in the slightest. Indeed there are anti-Semites who oppose it and anti-Semites who support it. If Israel is a fake country, then which country was Jesus from?
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Post by theguvnor on Oct 9, 2023 15:24:11 GMT
Most of the Israelis who moved to Israel after WW2 had never seen Israel either. I see barbarism from both sides at this point, leading to endless cycles of violence.
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bluekumul
Full Member
Christian humanist, democratic socialist, world citizen
Posts: 201
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Post by bluekumul on Oct 9, 2023 16:43:46 GMT
Most of the Israelis who moved to Israel after WW2 had never seen Israel either. I see barbarism from both sides at this point, leading to endless cycles of violence. It could be a wrong decision to re-establish Israel back in 1948, however we cannot go back 75 years ago to undo it. Many Israelis today are third or fourth generation citizens. Giving back their homes to descendants of Palestinian refugees would be like giving back Sydney to the Aborigines.
One good thing can be said about the Palestinian authorities in Gaza: they didn't allow ISIS or al-Qaeda inside their enclave.
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Post by tisbearself on Oct 9, 2023 18:19:52 GMT
Will soon need a revision, unless the current ending literally comes true, which I sure hope it does not. vimeo.com/199418954
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2023 18:29:06 GMT
I believe guvnor that one can believe Israel is an illegitimate state and not be anti-Semitic. I, as somebody of partial Jewish (Lithuanian / Russian) descent deplore anti-Semitism. In my opinion Israel is a fake country but opposing it is not anti-Semitic in the slightest. Indeed there are anti-Semites who oppose it and anti-Semites who support it. If Israel is a fake country, then which country was Jesus from? Jesus Christ Our Lord did not come from the Zionist Regime of Israel. He came from Roman Judea. At the time, Jews and other ethnicities lived there in peace. It is true there were many Jews there at the time. However, almost all of them were exiled after the fall of the temple. European Jews are ethnically extremely distant from those Jews who left around 70 AD. They have no claim to that land especially as the majority of the population were Arabs by the time they all decided to "come back". Israel is an occupationist state founded by secular European Jews in the mid-20th century. It has nothing to do with ancient Israel. Israel is the People of God - and since the institution by Our Lord Jesus Christ of the New Covenant, Israel is the Church, and its members both “Jew and Greek”.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2023 18:31:56 GMT
Most of the Israelis who moved to Israel after WW2 had never seen Israel either. I see barbarism from both sides at this point, leading to endless cycles of violence. It could be a wrong decision to re-establish Israel back in 1948, however we cannot go back 75 years ago to undo it. Many Israelis today are third or fourth generation citizens. Giving back their homes to descendants of Palestinian refugees would be like giving back Sydney to the Aborigines. A Maronite friend of mine who goes to my church said he thinks the pre-1948 Jews can stay, as well as the anti-Zionist Haredim. The rest can live in the countries their ancestors came from. It is insanity that my father could get Israeli citizenship because he is 1 /4 Jewish, but a Palestinian living in squalor in Gaza or Lebanon has no choice. It's a disgrace. I have sympathy with the terrible sufferings of the Jewish civilians in the current conflict. I have no sympathy for the "State of Israel".
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2023 18:34:37 GMT
UNRWA and many Arab nations perpetuate the problem by encouraging the "right to return" despite the fact that most of these "Palestinian refugees" have never seen their grandparents' lands in Israel. The hope for reconciliation is: www.britannica.com/topic/Abraham-AccordsYou honestly think the Abraham Accords are the solution? Nobody with even remote sympathies towards the Palestinian struggle believes that.
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Post by tth1 on Oct 10, 2023 11:24:53 GMT
UNRWA and many Arab nations perpetuate the problem by encouraging the "right to return" despite the fact that most of these "Palestinian refugees" have never seen their grandparents' lands in Israel. By the same reason you could argue many Jews should not go and live in Israel.
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bluekumul
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Christian humanist, democratic socialist, world citizen
Posts: 201
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Post by bluekumul on Oct 10, 2023 13:14:41 GMT
A Maronite friend of mine who goes to my church said he thinks the pre-1948 Jews can stay, as well as the anti-Zionist Haredim. The rest can live in the countries their ancestors came from. I wonder how many people your age (or even my age, born in 1986) would be willing to live in places where their ancestors lived in the 1940s. Why stop at the 1940s anyway? Should all white Americans go back to Europe, where their ancestors lived in the 1540s? Should all non-Aboriginal Australians leave Australia too?
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bluekumul
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Christian humanist, democratic socialist, world citizen
Posts: 201
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Post by bluekumul on Oct 10, 2023 18:43:51 GMT
One more thing for members who support Hamas: these are vile Islamic fundamentalists who hate Christians as much as Jews. Condemning entire nations isn't the way to go, but we should have the courage to condemn wicked Palestinian leadership.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2023 19:24:53 GMT
One more thing for members who support Hamas: these are vile Islamic fundamentalists who hate Christians as much as Jews. Condemning entire nations isn't the way to go, but we should have the courage to condemn wicked Palestinian leadership. Hamas does not hate Christians. You could say a lot about them, but that they hate Christians is not one of them. I won't link to the Hamas website here, but they have a section on Christians and how they defend the rights of Christians. People in the West don't seem to understand that Iran, Syria, and most of their allies are actually the most pro-Christian of all the Muslim states / groups in the Middle East. Secondly: Hamas is not the entire Palestinian leadership. The West Bank is controlled by Fatah.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2023 19:26:50 GMT
A Maronite friend of mine who goes to my church said he thinks the pre-1948 Jews can stay, as well as the anti-Zionist Haredim. The rest can live in the countries their ancestors came from. I wonder how many people your age (or even my age, born in 1986) would be willing to live in places where their ancestors lived in the 1940s. Why stop at the 1940s anyway? Should all white Americans go back to Europe, where their ancestors lived in the 1540s? Should all non-Aboriginal Australians leave Australia too? I don't think white Americans should go "back to Europe". I don't think Australians or New Zealanders should go to Europe either. Israel is a very different case. I think Israel is an illegitimate regime because it was established by secular Jews in the holiest land in the world - a land where Muslims, Christians, and Jews should live together in peace in one Palestinian state. Israel is a contrived country. Its whole identity is based on secular Zionism, continued oppression and genocide, and support from the USA.
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Post by tth1 on Oct 11, 2023 14:31:03 GMT
One more thing for members who support Hamas: these are vile Islamic fundamentalists who hate Christians as much as Jews. Condemning entire nations isn't the way to go, but we should have the courage to condemn wicked Palestinian leadership. I do not believe any members of this forum support Hamas and I do believe it is an inappropriate thing to write about your fellow CCS members. I intend to flag this up to the Global Moderator.
No one condones Hamas. The Palestinians have genuine grievances but this is not the way to resolve them.
We must, also, not lose sight of the fact that Israel is not some innocent party in the Middle East Conflict. Its response to Hamas' attack on Israel is completely inappropriate.
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Post by homeschooldad on Oct 11, 2023 15:38:53 GMT
One more thing for members who support Hamas: these are vile Islamic fundamentalists who hate Christians as much as Jews. Condemning entire nations isn't the way to go, but we should have the courage to condemn wicked Palestinian leadership. I do not believe any members of this forum support Hamas and I do believe it is an inappropriate thing to write about your fellow CCS members. I intend to flag this up to the Global Moderator.
No one condones Hamas. The Palestinians have genuine grievances but this is not the way to resolve them.
We must, also, not lose sight of the fact that Israel is not some innocent party in the Middle East Conflict. Its response to Hamas' attack on Israel is completely inappropriate.
My question would be whether Hamas may have a natural-law right to govern Palestine, but not have a right to create war, least of all against innocent civilians (even if one could say "all Israelis are de facto soldiers", due to their universal conscription and likelihood to be called up to military service at any moment, that would not apply to the babies they have killed). I don't know enough about Hamas, to be able to have an opinion of whether there is such a thing as a "Hamas" that is simply the governing authority of Palestine, or whether violence against and hatred of Israel is an intrinsic part of its identity, IOW, can you strip away the latter and still have something called "Hamas"? Too bad there can't be a peaceful two-state solution.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2023 20:29:15 GMT
Israel's military spokesman said he hopes that even though scenes from Gaza will be "difficult to witness and understand", he hopes Western support for Israel remains strong. Code for: "Yes, we will commit war crimes and massacre innocent civilians, but please don't think too much about it. Thanks!"
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