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Post by AveMaria on Oct 15, 2023 5:55:25 GMT
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Post by tth1 on Oct 26, 2023 14:21:21 GMT
Not clear what you mean by "no political party has any right to govern Palestine". If they are a state, of one kind or another, do they not have the right to rule themselves as they see fit? Almost all countries have political parties, and very often, one party has a lock on the entire government. Granted, they could do much better than Hamas. Yes, Palestine has a right to self-governance. The USA has the right to self-governance. You asked in Hamas had a natural law right to govern Palestine. As that sentence stands the answer is no. The Republicans have no natural law right to govern the USA. Palestinians may vote to give Hamas a majority is their legislature but Hamas has no right to be in that position. Likewise the Republicans could get enough seats in the House of Representatives and if they had the same in the US Senate they'd control the US legislature but they have no right to be in power.
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Post by homeschooldad on Oct 26, 2023 17:52:58 GMT
Not clear what you mean by "no political party has any right to govern Palestine". If they are a state, of one kind or another, do they not have the right to rule themselves as they see fit? Almost all countries have political parties, and very often, one party has a lock on the entire government. Granted, they could do much better than Hamas. Yes, Palestine has a right to self-governance. The USA has the right to self-governance. You asked in Hamas had a natural law right to govern Palestine. As that sentence stands the answer is no. The Republicans have no natural law right to govern the USA. Palestinians may vote to give Hamas a majority is their legislature but Hamas has no right to be in that position. Likewise the Republicans could get enough seats in the House of Representatives and if they had the same in the US Senate they'd control the US legislature but they have no right to be in power. I don't think we really disagree on this, it seems more to be a question of semantics. No, no one party has an a priori "right" to govern a country (unless, perhaps, the role of that party is written into the country's constitution), but once they are elected to the various seats of power, they have gained that right by sheer virtue of having been elected. This said, Hamas needs to clean up its act and eschew violence against Israelis, unless it were a question of self-defense, which the concert massacre clearly wasn't.
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Post by tth1 on Oct 27, 2023 15:05:36 GMT
Yes, Palestine has a right to self-governance. The USA has the right to self-governance. You asked in Hamas had a natural law right to govern Palestine. As that sentence stands the answer is no. The Republicans have no natural law right to govern the USA. Palestinians may vote to give Hamas a majority is their legislature but Hamas has no right to be in that position. Likewise the Republicans could get enough seats in the House of Representatives and if they had the same in the US Senate they'd control the US legislature but they have no right to be in power. I don't think we really disagree on this, it seems more to be a question of semantics. No, no one party has an a priori "right" to govern a country (unless, perhaps, the role of that party is written into the country's constitution), but once they are elected to the various seats of power, they have gained that right by sheer virtue of having been elected. This said, Hamas needs to clean up its act and eschew violence against Israelis, unless it were a question of self-defense, which the concert massacre clearly wasn't. I'm not sure Hamas was elected into power in Gaza by any democratic means. Hamas is proscribed in the UK as a terrorist organisation. You can be arrested and charged with an offence for showing support for Hamas here in the UK.
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Post by theguvnor on Oct 27, 2023 15:15:12 GMT
There is currently a hunt on for a woman seen with imagery showing support for them. I will be frank here I find that a bit silly given how many people are supportive of Palestine to some degree or other. At Birkbeck Campus yesterday had shedloads of students wearing Palestinian Flag t-shirts and one of my classmates is Jewish and noted she felt scared on campus now. There was an argument brewing by the main entrance at one point with students squaring off which security went and broke up in a very professional manner but remember these are fairly educated kids. Often from quite well-of backgrounds. The kids on council estates such as the one I grew up on are handling this very differently. There were shouts as the bus went through Stamford Hill the other day of, 'Kill them all, get the ovens running again' and one West Indian bloke started shouting about, 'Crisping them up and selling them as food.' Except that's my sanitized version of what was said. There was also tension there as it is an interface area but at the moment it is bonkers. I'm also a doctoral student and we tend to be a fair bit older than the kids in these melees and expected to behave in a more restrained manner. I however can see why the anger is there on both sides and students are naturally idealists and argumentative and many of them tend towards liking causes to embrace.
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Post by tth1 on Oct 27, 2023 15:26:08 GMT
This all shows to me how stupid large numbers of people, even ones said to have a good education, are. I have no issue with proscribing Hamas. It is blatantly a terrorist group. We should not, however, conflate Hamas with Palestinians. I have no issue with people supporting Palestinians.
Likewise, people shouldn't conflate Jewish people with the state of Israel. I think the way Israel behaves sometimes borders on terrorism. I live near a very large Jewish community. It saddens me to see the fact they have to have security guards outside synagogues. That isn't a recent development either. It's been like that for some considerable time.
It never ceases to amaze me to see someone from a group that can claim to be discriminated against discrimnating against another minority. I wonder if the West Indian bloke would be pleased to see signs in windows again saying, "No Blacks".
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Post by theguvnor on Oct 27, 2023 15:38:52 GMT
The dislike between Jews and black people in Stamford is epic as the kids say. It reaches unpleasant levels up there at times. I fortunately don't work in this area now and I'm rather thankful for that as I can imagine something silly kicking off there as this whole situation goes on. All the schools and synagogues in Stamford Hill have had guards and security as long as I can remember. When I was a teenager a Jewish kid was killed on a bus on the top deck there by kids attacking him over issues regarding the Palestinian and Israeli conflict. One of the Jewish schools for small kids had swastikas sprayed on it and messages left which were vile. Including, 'Don't worry about paying for them as they grow up they aren't going to.' The black community LOATH the Jews in many cases and see them as slave masters and slum landlords. They often shoulder them out of the way on buses or push past them. I am seriously glad not to be working near this because someone from one community or the other will say the wrong thing and it will get crazy up there.
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Post by homeschooldad on Oct 27, 2023 17:30:21 GMT
I don't think we really disagree on this, it seems more to be a question of semantics. No, no one party has an a priori "right" to govern a country (unless, perhaps, the role of that party is written into the country's constitution), but once they are elected to the various seats of power, they have gained that right by sheer virtue of having been elected. This said, Hamas needs to clean up its act and eschew violence against Israelis, unless it were a question of self-defense, which the concert massacre clearly wasn't. I'm not sure Hamas was elected into power in Gaza by any democratic means. Hamas is proscribed in the UK as a terrorist organisation. You can be arrested and charged with an offence for showing support for Hamas here in the UK. I don't know either. The question then becomes "does a terrorist organization have a natural-law right to govern a country, if that country's people have elected them?". And then define "terrorist".
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Post by theguvnor on Oct 27, 2023 20:09:19 GMT
That's a rather substantial can of worms to open HSD. Even if we just started with the history of my cultural background we could probably spend years exploring that. Let alone all the other independence struggles in twentieth-century history. Not forgetting of course US history as well.
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