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Post by theguvnor on Oct 7, 2023 8:04:26 GMT
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bluekumul
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Christian humanist, democratic socialist, world citizen
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Post by bluekumul on Oct 7, 2023 8:34:48 GMT
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2023 10:33:24 GMT
“God is truth and the Palestinian plight is truth." - Catholic Archbishop Hilarion Capucci (1922-2017), acclaimed by Palestinians as the "Archbishop of the Arabs". 🇵🇸
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Post by tth1 on Oct 7, 2023 12:01:09 GMT
I do not condone what Hamas has done. Not at all!
However, what do the Israelis and the rest of the world expect with the way Israel treats the Palestinians? Unfortunately, countries in the West support Israel and treat Palestinians as terrorists. The problem might be solved if the West applied enough pressure to Israel to allow a truly sovereign Palestinian state.
I don't know why the Western World kowtows to Israel.
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bluekumul
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Christian humanist, democratic socialist, world citizen
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Post by bluekumul on Oct 7, 2023 13:33:52 GMT
“God is truth and the Palestinian plight is truth." - Catholic Archbishop Hilarion Capucci (1922-2017), acclaimed by Palestinians as the "Archbishop of the Arabs". 🇵🇸 The plight is real, but it is to a large extent self-inflicted, as the article explained. Let's remember that Arab countries like Egypt and UAE have recognized Israel and it is very likely Saudi Arabia will soon do the same. Like Palestinians, Germans were expelled from their former territories in Poland in the 1940s. There are some right-wingers in Germany who want to return to their "stolen" lands, but we don't see any third or fourth generation "German refugees" let alone German extremists firing rockets at Poland.
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Post by theguvnor on Oct 7, 2023 14:12:20 GMT
Regarding the article by Mark Humphrys. Israel has been unpopular in Ireland for many years now. There was a point just after Israel was set up when many Irish people sympathized with it, especially when the Irgun were fighting Britain prior to that. Indeed, Robert Briscoe who was Lord Mayor of Dublin at one point and one of the chief couriers for the IRA aided smuggling efforts to get weapons for the Israelis. Briscoe was the son of Lithuanian Jews who had emigrated to Ireland due to pogroms. There's actually quite a bit of Irish involvement with the nascent Israel. One of the founders of their armoured division was an Irishman serving with British forces who stole tanks he then gave to the Israelis. This was Sergeant Mike Flanagan, he had been present at the liberation of Belsen which partly motivated his decision. He was also involved with a Jewish girl whom he later married after converting. He ended up as a Colonel in the Israeli Defence Forces.
However, the Irish over time lost their sympathy for the Israelis and by the time the late 60s rolled around many people sided with the Palestinians. The unionists for a variety of reasons sided with Israeli and in Northern Ireland if you see Palestinian flags it's a good clue you are in a majority Catholic or Nationalist area and if you see Israeli ones you know you are in an unionist area. In fact the dislike of Israel on my side of the divide has become so intense I at times feel uncomfortable with the anti-Semitic outbursts some figures have come out with.
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Post by theguvnor on Oct 7, 2023 14:32:52 GMT
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Post by theguvnor on Oct 7, 2023 19:17:36 GMT
Every Irish forum I've been on today is around 90 per cent behind the Palestinians. On one of them, an Irish Jewish protested this and this led to people telling her to get out of the state with her Zionist rubbish. That was rather ugly. I personally am not wholly for any side in the conflict but Israel scored many own goals with its relationship with Ireland such as the passport scandal and it has become very disliked by many Irish people as a result. Added to that in the north is the fact the IRA and other groups like the INLA maintained links with the PLO and they exchanged information and participated in cross-training at points.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2023 19:35:54 GMT
I hope that civilian deaths on both sides will be avoided as best as possible.
Nonetheless, the Zionist regime has oppressed and abused the Palestinians, and actually committed genocide against them, for 75 years now. How on earth one could think a group of largely secular European Jews have a right to go to Palestine, displace the Arab population, and establish a state their own religion would not tolerate, I have no idea. The most devout of the Orthodox Jews hate Israel - even those who live there throw rubbish at the Israeli Army when they enter Orthodox neighbourhoods.
"Israel" in my opinion is blasphemous because Israel is rightly applied only to the Church under the New Covenant, not to a occupationist regime led largely by secular Jews. In the same sense the word "Zionist" is used blasphemously here, because we are all Zionists in the sense that Zion, i.e. our heavenly homeland, is our object and our goal. To degrade the term to mean a secular Jewish homeland in the land hallowed by Our Lord Jesus Christ is a blasphemy.
The catastrophic plight of the Palestinians cries out to heaven as an injustice that can only be corrected by returning all the lands to the Palestinians.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2023 19:39:40 GMT
In fact the dislike of Israel on my side of the divide has become so intense I at times feel uncomfortable with the anti-Semitic outbursts some figures have come out with. I believe guvnor that one can believe Israel is an illegitimate state and not be anti-Semitic. I, as somebody of partial Jewish (Lithuanian / Russian) descent deplore anti-Semitism. In my opinion Israel is a fake country but opposing it is not anti-Semitic in the slightest. Indeed there are anti-Semites who oppose it and anti-Semites who support it.
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Post by theguvnor on Oct 7, 2023 19:43:53 GMT
Oh yes, there is a whole range of opinions. Sometimes paradoxical and contradictory. Of course, many of the Orthodox view Israel as illegitimate. Although as other Jews have observed it doesn't stop them from living there. Unfortunately, I am thinking of a reactionary view that sees the Israelis as imperialists like the British, which is playing a role in shaping outlooks in Ireland.
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Post by theguvnor on Oct 7, 2023 20:06:05 GMT
“God is truth and the Palestinian plight is truth." - Catholic Archbishop Hilarion Capucci (1922-2017), acclaimed by Palestinians as the "Archbishop of the Arabs". 🇵🇸 The plight is real, but it is to a large extent self-inflicted, as the article explained. Let's remember that Arab countries like Egypt and UAE have recognized Israel and it is very likely Saudi Arabia will soon do the same. Like Palestinians, Germans were expelled from their former territories in Poland in the 1940s. There are some right-wingers in Germany who want to return to their "stolen" lands, but we don't see any third or fourth generation "German refugees" let alone German extremists firing rockets at Poland. Are any third or fourth generation 'German refugees' living in squalor on the Gaza Strip?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2023 20:13:31 GMT
“God is truth and the Palestinian plight is truth." - Catholic Archbishop Hilarion Capucci (1922-2017), acclaimed by Palestinians as the "Archbishop of the Arabs". 🇵🇸 The plight is real, but it is to a large extent self-inflicted, as the article explained. Let's remember that Arab countries like Egypt and UAE have recognized Israel and it is very likely Saudi Arabia will soon do the same. Like Palestinians, Germans were expelled from their former territories in Poland in the 1940s. There are some right-wingers in Germany who want to return to their "stolen" lands, but we don't see any third or fourth generation "German refugees" let alone German extremists firing rockets at Poland. Disagree. The terrible events suffered by the Germans of Eastern Europe are not really comparable. The Germans had lived amongst Slavs and others in some cases for centuries and when expelled were expelled to the territory of their ancestral homeland. For the Palestinians, all of the territory of the former Mandatory Palestine is their homeland. Jews from Russia, Ukraine, Poland, Germany, and other countries have absolutely no ancestral or cultural link to these lands whatsoever. There were Jews in Palestine who lived peacefully with Christians and Muslims. These largely secularist Jews came to Palestine from the 1940s onwards, committed massacres and genocides to establish a state with no legitimacy, and occupied the rest of Palestine. Earlier this year a New Zealander, Catholic religious Br Peter Bray, who heads the Catholic University in Palestine gave a talk at my parish. He actually lives in the Palestinian Territories and what he described about how Israel treats them made me sick. It is an absolute disgrace.
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Post by tth1 on Oct 8, 2023 14:25:45 GMT
It is shocking the way the Israelis treat the Palestinians.
I can see no resolution to this conflict, ever.
Israelis and many Jews will never accept a Palestinian State with full sovereignty. There are Jews who believe they have a God-given right to the land on the West Bank that they occupy.
Many Arabs and Muslims will not recognise the existence of Israel. There are some, e.g. Iran, who will not be satisfied unless the state of Israel is destroyed.
Two intractable sides, neither of which is willing to compromise or listen to reason or to achieve a peaceful and amicable solution. I will go to my grave without this issue being resolved. I also believe my grandchildren (if God blesses me with any) will also go to their graves without this matter resolved.
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bluekumul
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Christian humanist, democratic socialist, world citizen
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Post by bluekumul on Oct 9, 2023 15:09:59 GMT
UNRWA and many Arab nations perpetuate the problem by encouraging the "right to return" despite the fact that most of these "Palestinian refugees" have never seen their grandparents' lands in Israel. The hope for reconciliation is: www.britannica.com/topic/Abraham-Accords
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